Author Topic: 500€ for free, for everyone  (Read 22408 times)

Armin

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500€ for free, for everyone
« on: 2007-01-17 19:35:29 »
You want to have 500€? It's quite simple, but it only works, if you all do it: Don't pay the tuition fees. Place the money on the "Treuhandkonto" instead. Two things can happen:

6000 students refuse to pay. The university will have to give in. You get your 500€ back.

Less students participate. Your money will go to the university, and you're out of trouble, but have 500€ less.


I myself have only one more semester. I can afford the 500€ easily. Many, most of us can. Those few who can't just don't deserve to study. Surely, studying is worth 5000€ (till your final degree). And even if they raise it to other countries'/universities' standards (5000€ a year), you'll gladly pay, as long as they increase it in steps that do not hurt too much. They told you to pay, and they are right.
And if you'd feel better without tuition fees, remember: You are alone. You are the only one, and everyone else around you wants YOU to pay. Go ask your friends. They all want to pay, as much as the university likes. They will do. Some still have to get a credit. Well, 500€ is a good start. And kinda nice not to start off with 5000€. So let's be glad it's not more. They make the price, and they're in the position to do that. That's why they call it democracy, right?


www.tuewas.org

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #1 on: 2007-01-26 13:06:40 »
Hey there!

I think that we should take every chance we can get - after all, it's our right given by the constitution of this country to
  • have a free education
  • protest against everything that we don't like

The Fachschaft has recieved lots of info-material through 'Hauspost'. Lotsa posters and flyouts. How about distributing them at the SfS? I could do that this weekend. Just put up the posters and let the flyouts pass round in lectures.

Stand up! That's maybe our only chance!
I can't believe people are so obedient nowadays. It sounds so rediculous. After all, the situation is the following. Either you'll pay or you'll participate in a protest and pay if it fails or won't pay otherwise... There's absolutely no excuse here: if you are going to pay anyways, you can give the protest a chance!

It's that easy.

Regards, Aleks

PS: I could put up the posters this weekend, but I would like to ask the whole Fachschaft first.
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

Kilian

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #2 on: 2007-01-26 13:18:12 »
Good idea.
There was n-ary a tree in sight.

johannes

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #3 on: 2007-01-26 13:56:14 »
Yes. Even though we may have different opinions on this (democratic decisions etc.), there is nothing wrong in informing people.
I know this is going to be propaganda of some sort, but I am willing to accept this also in my name.

BTW: Not paying could also be treated as a case of obedience and giving in to propaganda (or at least to be identified with demands and suggestions you would never have made on your own). But again, that's a problem of any mass movement.

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #4 on: 2007-01-26 18:44:29 »
Yes. Even though we may have different opinions on this (democratic decisions etc.), there is nothing wrong in informing people.

Democracy is a nice thing. However in Baden-Württemberg the power is to the Lords of Oettingen  and no matter what burden they impose onto the Universities, the majority of the minor people will follow them. (»Selbstverschuldete Unmündigkeit« - Kant, wasn't it?)

Oh if those Lords only were so kind as Lord Eberhardt the Bearded had been back in those days when he cried out loud »Attempto« and started studying ISCL. Well almost. (History is a lie we have commonly agreed on. Who was that again?)

SCNR. :-)

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #5 on: 2007-01-27 04:52:08 »
(History is a lie we have commonly agreed on. Who was that again?)
Quote from: Napoleon
History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree on.
                -- Napoleon Bonaparte, "Maxims"
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

Armin

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #6 on: 2007-01-27 11:38:05 »
So there is conformity with the masses (well...) and obediency to the state, but if you do not want to follow any of these there's a simple question to ask: If you were free to pay or not, would you?

And if your answer is no, you'll only be heard when joining the largest movement of that direction. That is www.tuewas.org.

So etwas wie einen freien Willen kann man sich nicht immer leisten, wenn man seinen Willen auch durchsetzen will. Man nimmt dann das, was erstens genügend Anhänger hat und zweitens nah genug an der eigenen Meinung ist.

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #7 on: 2007-01-27 13:11:05 »
So etwas wie einen freien Willen kann man sich nicht immer leisten, wenn man seinen Willen auch durchsetzen will. Man nimmt dann das, was erstens genügend Anhänger hat und zweitens nah genug an der eigenen Meinung ist.

Yeah Yeah. I remember the demonstrations and the occupation of the Schloß. But I never understood why I should support the Ludwigstraße 15 story if I'm just not happy with the 500€ fee...

... the problem all those student movements have is that they never stick to one thing. If you're supporting them you're in many cases as well supporting something you either have never heard of or you don't want to support.

And then they complain that not everybody is like them.

Armin

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #8 on: 2007-01-27 13:46:14 »
As a movement they expect to attract more people if they have more than one topic. You're supposed to think in inclusive ORs, not in ANDs: If at least one topic attracts you, join them. Many things you only get in packages. That's the way it is.

Andreas R.

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #9 on: 2007-01-31 19:14:12 »
Quote from: Armin
6000 students refuse to pay. The university will have to give in. You get your 500€ back.

1) You're an optimist, aren't you?
2) On tuewas.org there is a counter for money  received on the Treuhandkonto. At the moment (31.01.2007) they have 481 people who paid in their 600 Euro.

Is it realistic that they will reach 6000? What do all of you think?

Anna

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #10 on: 2007-01-31 19:28:44 »
See, I distrust people. Because they are people. And I cannot sleep well knowing I have given 500€ to someone I do not know virtually anything about. I am assuming there is some mechanism of preventing fraud, nevertheless I'm a Hobbes kind of person -- where is a will there is a way.

Btw. afaik Uni Tü did not get on the list of the 'elite universities', which means it'll not get that much money from the government anymore. I am against tuition fees but I get the point -- no cash => no seminars. I really hope they'll get our university on the 'ivy league' list of German universities and we will not have to pay. I do not support Studiengebühren, just trying to look at the problem from the opponent's point of view.
pain is an illusion of the senses, despair an illusion of the mind

argh.

johannes

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #11 on: 2007-01-31 23:53:19 »
Quote
Many things you only get in packages. That's the way it is.

Yes. And the same applies to political parties. What if any interest group (and we students are one as well) plainly refused to stoop to any democratic decision made against them? Who would be paying taxes?

The energy these people waste on undermining a democracy should be invested in trying to alleviate hard cases.

lyubka

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #12 on: 2007-02-04 00:26:15 »
Hi,
I understand that for the people who are graduating it is not a problem,but for people like me,1st Sem, it is,ecpesially when you o not have the money,as I do. So the one decision was to take a loan(which is basically inpossible from a normal bank beacuse I am not German) but somehow I took a loan from the LBW bank which,of course helps the students giving high interests.  So it is pitty,but this is also what they call democracy(at least they live on choice to continue).
Is it really posible that if enogh people do not pay they will recieve the money back?

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #13 on: 2007-02-04 00:38:46 »
Yes, but we're pretty far away from "enough" people, because mostly, Tübingen's Students seem to be a horde of cowards...

That's a pity, still the only thing we can do about this is to show our intolerance against this decision...
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

johannes

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #14 on: 2007-02-04 01:04:22 »
Well, it seems I am cowardly enough to give you my reasons for paying.

If all those people who all of a sudden get so "political" and "socially engaged" and "courageous" had already been so BEFORE the danger of money being pulled out of their pockets became acute, the whole story would seem so much less hypocritic.

Students are just one more disgusting interest group or lobby like everyone else is.

Yes, the problem exists and even from a general social point of view, there are good reasons against tuition fees. But people who ignore in apathy what happens in the parties, in parliament etc for years, then suddenly wakie up as politics begin to touch them, but then with even more enthusiasm call everyone else "cowards", just annoy me. That's why I am taking a counter-position here that does not necessarily reflect my political views on tuition fees (yes, they are crap). I'm paying. Any other reaction would seem cowardly to me.


aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #15 on: 2007-02-04 05:58:49 »
'All of a sudden?'

All people that I know (and definitely all people in the AK-Studiengebühren) are and were concerned about political topics - maybe you did not see them because their opinions are seldom published on Spiegel-online... I have been working for over a year at a political/social center in Reutlingen - a café and theater where all people had a vivid political, cultural and social life concerning a variety of topics ranging from local events to (inter)national demonstrations and political happenings. That's maybe not always visible in everyday life as most people tend to ignore those 'freaks' - yet still the scene is and has been very active.

I must admit that I was not always following the activities going on inside and between the parties of this country. Well, why should I? I don't see any progression and I don't see possibilities at all. I don't like their faces and I generally dislike their actions - I'm even against this whole system which is not a democracy, but capitalistic parliamentarism. 'Demos' is not asked about it's own rights and interests - it is just allowed to choose the people that will decide on it's rights and about it's interests. And those people rarely if at all tell the truth (just remember the situation in Hungary a few months ago). I was not asked. Nobody was asked. There was not a single word of it in the press before people where allowed to choose. At least not to the best of my knowledge - and this means, if there was something at all, it was carefully hidden. This has all happened quietly behind the scenes.

People call this a democracy - but par definition a democracy is a society where the people rule themselves. We do not rule ourselves, as I mentioned. But we still aren't left without any rights at all. Although decreasing, fading, our voices can still rise and we have the tool called 'protest' against all and every decision the comes upon us (and it still comes from 'above' not from 'amidst').

If people will only wake up when their personal financial 'freedom' (if I may dare to use this word) is threatened - that's still a fair moment to teach them their right to take their rights. But that's just nothing more than a counterargument to your accusation.

The sad part of the story is however, that I was at the Sparkasse here in Tübingen when all this action started. I knew some of the people taking part in this event and all in all, there were quite a few folks standing there. All people I knew shared the same background I already depicted. We were only about 70 - the event was supposed to be called "Masseneinzahlung". No masses to be seen and only some media represented by an unfriendly team with a camera.
But still, those people were and have been active in various political spheres before this. May it be connected to the fees or not, I saw all of them at least once at one or another demonstration - in fact many of them I knew only from demonstrations. Not that I am a frequent visitor of demonstrations - but most of them were and still are!

And please, do not forget: this whole fuss about tuition fees is not supposed to be political - it is a social matter. It is all about: will  I stay in this country for all my life? Well, then, what is about my children? How much money will they be supposed to spend on this? Will I be able to afford the education of my very children?
You may argue that financial aids could be made available to help the poor and scholarships for the good students. But you may even see the point that not only the good students should be allowed to have the education they desire. After all, excluding all but the rich and the brilliant would seem (to me) like excluding all but the white. And even if students are allowed to take financial aids that are not connected to their intelligence or parental wealth - they receive no presents. That makes it absolutely impossible for them to study a field not closely connected to the capitalistic system, so they would be able to make enough money to pay the generous gifts they had been given back. But what about people that do not care about money? What about people that want to study something they are interested in - just like we are?

Education is not a service provided by the state. Education is a civil right. This country is acting against its own interest by raising those fees. For this country has nothing else than know-how and the sturdiness of its people. If it will depend on only the latter, it will choose its faith as an industrial nation - as a nation with poorly paid workers and horribly well paid managers.

If those tuition fees will remain a constant in the educational policy of this German state... well then it's the last chance to say goodbye to the country of the "Dichter" and "Denker".

Say hello to the Land of Bankkaufmen and BWLstudents, Siemens-Managers and Soccer pros.

... oh yes, and you could be so kind not stepping on the poor; sometimes they make quite a mess out of things when not treated carefully ...
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #16 on: 2007-02-04 10:02:33 »
Yes, the problem exists and even from a general social point of view, there are good reasons against tuition fees. But people who ignore in apathy what happens in the parties, in parliament etc for years, then suddenly wakie up as politics begin to touch them, but then with even more enthusiasm call everyone else "cowards", just annoy me. That's why I am taking a counter-position here that does not necessarily reflect my political views on tuition fees (yes, they are crap). I'm paying. Any other reaction would seem cowardly to me.

Well, well... the situation is simple. They want my money. And they don't want a few bucks only... so how could I support this?

Being interested in politics, hm. I take part in elections and I try to keep informed about what party is interested in what I'm interested in. But für Baden-Würstchenenberg it seems more and more worthless. It's always the same party and the same attitudes making it. And their secretaries started fooling me in Gymnasium already. So maybe this really is the power of the people and they want it like this. Would be a good reason to some other country.


Demonstrations? Lord Oettinger and his following can never ever be threatened by that means. It is merely a means to express one's attitude. Apart from that it is (has become?) a means without effect.

Summing up:
+ tuition fees
+ "Generation Praktikum" - many graduates do earn exactly nothing and do internship hopping
+ be "flexible" until you die from it (basically: accept anything they want, don't consider what you want)
+ start into your job with a bag of debt
+ feel that you're not accepted as an academic person
--> Either don't study at all, or (better) leave to some other place right after you've graduated.

The latter is of course an economic disaster but it feels appropriate.  :o

Anna

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #17 on: 2007-02-04 11:01:10 »
I am against the tuition fees, especially since they're going to make my studies here even more expensive.
As I read on the tuewas website, for students from abroad (maybe not so much for those from the EU) it is even more risky because they might just get sent back home.

We are discussing the social situation of the students, and it is shitty -- not much to add here. The system of scholarships will be developed in 1-2 semesters as they have told me. Sweet, that's about 1000€ away from here. But what we need to keep in mind is - Uni Tübingen is also running low on cash. Some of the seminars are being shut down, less courses are taking place, and just look how it is at our department. With no money to pay them, professors will move to other universities. Of course, they will not and cannot close the university, but what will be left? Medicine, law, BWL, biology? Not indology, medieval English, not computational nor general linguistics (jeez, the seminars I chose... someone should have told me before to study something I will earn a lot from doing, and not that what I like ;)).

It is not so much about fighting against but for our Alma Mater! There must be something we can do about this in agreement with Uni Tü.
pain is an illusion of the senses, despair an illusion of the mind

argh.

johannes

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #18 on: 2007-02-04 13:28:30 »
I actually agree to most of what you say. Aleks, from the social perspective you're definitely right, I couldn't agree more. There was a lot of pathos in your little address, which shows you are one of those few people not giving in to the "system" and not despairing til agony. The problem is: We'd need more of those. It's a pity that all the good guys are against the "system", instead of trying to improve it from within - which is still possible, contrary to your views. The problem about your criticism is that you don't really offer an alternative. I know about your anarcho-syndicalist views and I appreciate them, but when we talked about it you had to submit it isn't feasible on a larger scale. Thanks to Anna for bringing Hobbes into play...

Be that as it may, you simply don't have the right to call everyone else "cowards". That's why I got so annoyed.
As you know, I have also been politically active, and I also have the feeling it's hard to change things, but from where do you take the arrogance to say that whoever doesn't agree to your somewhat extreme opinion is a "coward"? There are certain illiberal tendencies hovering around this word that I must reject being a democrate - and I expect you might want to refrain from them as well.

By the way, this matter IS largely political. Not all the problems DrNI listed are directly subject of politics, but they are all influenced by it to a very high degree. The problem is: I simply don't want to give up. It s simple to say "oh,the system is shit anyway, I don't want to be bothered by it any more, I'll just wait for the next revolution and THEN I'm going to be active". That's just the easy way out. I know this does not apply to you, Aleks, but it is a little schizophreniac at best to gladly take the liberties the "system" provides (such as being allowed to express your opinion, even being against the "system as a whole" (which doesn't really exist)) just to be bluntly "against it". Oh, the system is so bad, we simply don't have any influence, so we might just as well give up. No. There never was a system without political elites ruling it (there were better elites than nowadays, I know), so "democracy" as you define it simply doesn't exist. The same for communism and any other ideology (even neoliberalism meets its problems once it has to recognize hat people have feelings and don't act rationally ). I know about the advantages of the current "system", and that's why I have problems with anyone who wants to discard it as a whole.

Summary:

My problem: People are either (remember "there are two kinds of people" ? *g*)

"against the system as a whole" --> Aleks and the politically engaged part of the tuition fee critics
just another disgusting interest group --> the other part of the tuition fee critics

My consequences as a democrat still largely in favour of the system although against tuition fees: I pay.

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #19 on: 2007-02-04 17:46:36 »
But what we need to keep in mind is - Uni Tübingen is also running low on cash.

This is a nice argument. Then again it's not. The question whether the money will eventually reach the place where it is needed is still not answered. Still, using it for the heating expenses seems to be a common wish amongst universities. (Ulm, Tübingen, Karlsruhe, Freiburg...) Stuffing the money into every hole there is? Especially into the ones in the Brechtbau roof? Hm. Will we as students ever get detailed information on where their money goes?

Still I'm pessimistic enough to believe that they will cut down the budget for universities in the next years by accidentally the same amount of plus expected by the tuition fees.

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #20 on: 2007-02-06 04:28:56 »
Demonstrations? Lord Oettinger and his following can never ever be threatened by that means. It is merely a means to express one's attitude. Apart from that it is (has become?) a means without effect.
Well, then, open revolt? This is not at all that unlikely.

Johannes, as a democrat, you should remember the situation (well, not exactly remember the situation but remember what you know about it): it was a few decades before we were born... There was a Big Coalition (or shall I translate it as Great?), there was hardly any opposition and although it was making good progress on some mostly economic issues, the people started feeling uncomfortable with it. This was the birth to APO (Ausserparlamentarische Opposition) and eventually, later, even the RAF (I guess everybody knows what that means).
I am not predicting this same miserable faith for the future - again. But it's a Déjà Vu, isn't it? I was hoping that people would see the lack of democracy in their democracy and that they won't just stand aside and look... well, it's still not over, however.

Anna, I was not meaning you when I said that, I know the difficulty of your issue - I was hesitating myself as I am not German and don't have the German citizenship (fortunately, I think (hope) they are not going to take my Aufentahltsgenehmigung for being such a lefty).
And when I called Tübingen's students a horde of cowards, I put a mostly in front of that. I meant those people that only give in - people that do not agree to the decision but are still paying just because the university has threatened them (it has, as we all know, as it threatens people like Anna to kick them out of this country if they're going to fight for their own rights - leaving them, effectively, without any rights).
Those people are cowards in the exact sense of the word to me. I know that's illiberal and I know that this is a very negative word, but how do you call people that are against something and not willing to fight against it even if it would be just that easy? - no risk, but the chance to break a decision made they do not agree with!

There are a quite a few people willing to pay - but mostly, they're not going to pay the fees with their own money so they are to be treated as even greater cowards, and ignorant ones as well...

Johannes' arguments are quite unique among the students here in Tübingen, I guess... didn't hear loyalty to 'our democracy' too often...

And this matter is made to be largely political - that is, unfortunately, the only way to achieve something even in the social sector. The essence of the subject, however, should not be viewed as being a political one but that's not commonly seen by people. They have all kinds of arguments that only say something about the circumstances - they are not rarely concerned with the issue itself - it's all about lacking money, students studying useless courses such as Philosophy or Social Pedagogics, whatever you like..

Basically it runs down to the following question:

Will education be free in this country or will it be not?

Everything else about fiscal speculations and democratic ideologies is not the essence of the subject.
Will this country descend into aristocracy and a two fold society or are we able to prevent the first step down the drain?

That's a very idealistic view at the subject but I think sometimes human kind just has to have some ideas to prevent stultification among us...
« Last Edit: 2007-02-06 04:32:33 by aleks »
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #21 on: 2007-02-09 11:14:05 »
As a movement they expect to attract more people if they have more than one topic. You're supposed to think in inclusive ORs, not in ANDs: If at least one topic attracts you, join them. Many things you only get in packages. That's the way it is.
You may be right that it does not really look like it may be successful - but now it's Friday, 8th of Feb. and it's pretty much the last chance to pay - no matter where to...

And about 10 000 to 12 000 students still did not pay! That's what I heard from the Plenum yesterday.

Alright folks: we heard that all this fees are not going to improve our situation as students, that's what we heard from Hinrichs, and that's what the guys from BBPlenum did say about it as well. So, the one argument: "but it's for improving the educational situation" is down...

If you are not convinced that you should pay this because of political reasons, you should really think about the Treuhandkonto! It's our chance now...

www.tuewas.org

NO excuses!
« Last Edit: 2007-02-09 12:16:26 by aleks »
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #22 on: 2007-02-09 11:26:56 »
Hi folks. I just wanted to advertise my weblog. Well not exactly: I opened up a category especially for the 500€-Issue and I found already quite some stuff to post there. Feel free to drop by: http://www.drni.de/blog/categories/11-Gebuehrend-studieren

Armin

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #23 on: 2007-02-09 11:47:23 »
3 smaller universities got their quarter of the students; but still the whole protest will fail because of the overall (Baden-Würstchenberg) quorum. It's a shame! Pay to the Treuhandkonto, NOW!

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #24 on: 2007-02-09 12:37:30 »
3 smaller universities got their quarter of the students; but still the whole protest will fail because of the overall (Baden-Würstchenberg) quorum. It's a shame! Pay to the Treuhandkonto, NOW!

I did already. I think the SfS students are not the big issue. Either they pay to the "right" account or they have an exemption.

Armin

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #25 on: 2007-02-09 12:44:24 »
I asked my neighbors, and they're on the right side as well. So who are the paying masses? It seems to me that they're not the people I usually have contact to. A side effect of the reasons WHY I don't have contact to them?

(Mensa: "Nur Burschis boykottieren nicht!")

Anna

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #26 on: 2007-02-09 14:21:27 »
Armin, you can't force or command anyone to pay, that generally irritates me about the whole "tue was" -- imperatives everywhere.
I'm going to pay today, convince me with arguments and not commands, cause I'm still somewhere in between.
Btw. most of the people I know have either payed already or will pay... That's not very encouraging...
pain is an illusion of the senses, despair an illusion of the mind

argh.

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #27 on: 2007-02-09 14:44:09 »
Armin, you can't force or command anyone to pay, that generally irritates me about the whole "tue was" -- imperatives everywhere.
I'm going to pay today, convince me with arguments and not commands, cause I'm still somewhere in between.
Btw. most of the people I know have either payed already or will pay... That's not very encouraging...
Payed who? And you?

Hm, we were told nobody would be kicked out if not enrolled, but for you the matter may be different.

Look, nobody is forcing you to pay anything to anyone except the university itself which is forcing you to pay 602 bucks. That's one hell of a lot of money... (for me at least...)

I think there have been enough arguments already - you have surely followed the discussion in this thread...
Here's an additional one: if students do not have to pay in the end, we'll have several ten thousand students with some spare 500 euros... that's gonna boost German economy for sure ;)
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #28 on: 2007-02-09 15:03:35 »
Armin, you can't force or command anyone to pay, that generally irritates me about the whole "tue was" -- imperatives everywhere.
I'm going to pay today, convince me with arguments and not commands, cause I'm still somewhere in between.
Btw. most of the people I know have either payed already or will pay... That's not very encouraging...

OK some killer arg: The persons in charge at our department believe, that they might have less money in the end. (For the teaching part of university hospital, this will be definetely true, for reasons for this and other issues, see my weblog posts from this week.)  And: Apparently the university is unable to hire new teachers due to some fancy administration rules. They can only hire Hiwis, buy books, etc. But it is very likely that with the breakup of the budget into to several budgets (research, teaching) people will do some tricks to take away approx. this amount from teaching that will come in with the tuition »harvest«. There are a couple of reasons altogether why it is very likely that we will have not more money or teaching in the end.

So even if you believe somehow that paying will improve things and that it's worth it, this might be just a noble illusion created by politicians. We might have less teaching than before. So what will be different? The sole difference is: You pay 500€ more than before.

The boycott minimizes the risk for the people taking part in it. I think you are familiar with the basic idea. It is the only remaining form of protest there is. It is unlikely that you will lose anything, so why not taking part?

Anna

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #29 on: 2007-02-09 15:31:21 »
What I don't understand in this whole case is: how can I be sure that, in case this fails, my money will go to the university and not to a group of people, who are also looking for a way to finance their studies? 500€, as Aleks pointed out, is a lot of money...

By "forcing" I meant the whole aggressive agenda, that if you do not support the boycott then you are the worst kind, terrible, we'll all hate you, so just do it and conform to what we say! I might ;) be wrong but this is how people see it...
pain is an illusion of the senses, despair an illusion of the mind

argh.

DrNI

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #30 on: 2007-02-09 15:57:54 »
What I don't understand in this whole case is: how can I be sure that, in case this fails, my money will go to the university and not to a group of people, who are also looking for a way to finance their studies? 500€, as Aleks pointed out, is a lot of money...

Well. With filling out the "Datenkontrollblatt" you sign a contract with them. This contract states in detail what they are allowed to do with the money. If they don't stick to this contract, you can sue them. Apart from that they seem to have a misappropriation insurance for the money.

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #31 on: 2007-02-09 16:01:36 »
Yes, I have to agree that we are behaving quite strange...

You can be sure that the money is going to be treated the right way. All those filthy students will never see a single cent on their bank account. The thing is: the money is being paid to an account which is administered by a lawyer and all this is being observed by a notarius... no student will even have a glimpse at your money.

And there's the 'hiding in the masses': approximately 1000 students have already paid the money - the same way university's not able to exmatriculate an amount of n students, nobody can cheat on 1000 students (OK, not nobody - but you get the idea: it is unlikely)

Last but not least: there's the trust me argument: I know some guys of the AK... I almost joined them, they are really not that typical leftie kind.... meaning a letarghic bunch of hobos that sit around all day long and smoke Marihuana and take a billion semesters to finsh their studies, if at all... those would never be able to organize all this...

The people in AK are just starting to feel quite desperate about the situation... the same here: how can a boycott fail, if there are so many people supporting the general idea? This is just another argument in favor of misanthropy and nihilsm: they're dumb sheep anyways...

But it still didn't fail, there's maybe a chance, so let's not give in to that illusion of our minds ;)

PS: while I was writing this, DrNI has already given another good argument... and there's maybe still one left:
The university's going to waste this money for sure... you can as well just throw it out of the window.
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

Anna

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #32 on: 2007-02-09 16:35:51 »
I must say you got me convinced!
The deciding argument, however, came from my father. As far he's the one paying for my studies...  :-\  And that was one of the best-pronounced "NO's" (meaning a negation, not a non-government organization) I have ever heard.
So I have to pay but I'll talk to the people I know who have not done it yet. I feel stupid now but that's the only thing I can do know.

Quote from: Aleks
Yes, I have to agree that we are behaving quite strange...
Well, it's understandable (to some extent), you're pissed.
pain is an illusion of the senses, despair an illusion of the mind

argh.

johannes

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #33 on: 2007-02-10 15:21:41 »
Greetings from a dumb sheep, Aleks.

If you're on your nihilsitic trip again just because people won't do what you tell them,
why don't you just retreat and leave them in peace. There's enough soma around for everyone  ;)

Echt, komm mal runter, Aleks. Das ist langsam echt nicht mehr feierlich.
« Last Edit: 2007-02-10 15:23:40 by johannes »

aleks

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #34 on: 2007-02-10 20:35:51 »
The people in AK are just starting to feel quite desperate about the situation... the same here: how can a boycott fail, if there are so many people supporting the general idea? This is just another argument in favor of misanthropy and nihilsm: they're dumb sheep anyways...
Common Johannes, don't take everything so personal... you're not a political Diva, are you?
You don't seem to  support the general idea of the boycott, so I did not mean you, and I only wanted to express how people could feel about this to Anna, as she was disturbed by the aggressive kind of "advertisement" for the whole project - which is, to certain extent, understandable.


Gibt auch nix zu feiern, oder?
"Die Akademie ist hier sehr schwach, ob sie gleich verdienstvolle Leute besitzt und ein ungeheures Geld [...] verwendet wird; allein die alte Form widerspricht jedem fortschreitenden Leben, die Wirkungen greifen nicht ineinander"
Goethe in Tübingen, 1797

johannes

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Re: 500€ for free, for everyone
« Reply #35 on: 2007-02-11 09:58:21 »
Nee, echt nicht...

Und das "aggressive kind of advertisement" nervt mich WIRKLICH SEHR!

Bin echt froh, wenn das ganze vorbei ist.

Einen schönen Sonntag noch,

Johannes

P.S.: Political Diva? Doesn't sound too bad. I guess that would be the only area where I have the potential for a diva  ;)